I need your experience strength and hope please

Help for alcohol abuse addiction alcoholics who want to stay sober
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I need your experience strength and hope please

Postby Jools » Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:58 pm

Hey y'all,

I went to court this morning. Prayed b4 I went and asked for Gods will to be done and for Him to help me accept it. I went in there all positive, I think I was secretly SURE I was going to get the car back.

Judge says nope, even tho I had a notarized promissory note stating that if Tyson missed ONE payment he had to give the car back. He sat there and lied under oath. Said I gave him the car and no he didn't sign the document.

I was shaking I was so upset. I cried so hard when I walked out of that court room. Where is the justice?????? How could someone sit there and perjure himself and it be Gods will?????

I immediately called my sponsor told her I've tried it the legal way now I'm gonna have his ass beat, blah, blah, blah. I have never had anyones ass beat in my life, or caused physical harm to another human being over something like this. She told me that was old behavior, old behavior is what causes us to drink and that, because I hadn't learned yet how to deal with stuff like this in a healthy way that the anger and rage was the first thing I knew how to react with.

She shared with me an incident in her life where she just signed her house over to a man because a lil voice told her to. So she went to his attorney, signed the papers and she was free from it after that.

I went and hired an attorney and he said it is a legal contract that Tyson did not uphold his end of the agreement but "recovery of property" small claims court was not the place to do it.

So here's the deal. I have prayed and prayed the serenity prayer over a hundred times today, I'm sure. I've cried and prayed that God save me from being angry. And I'm crying now and I'm still angry.

I don't even think it's about the car anymore. Its about this lil son of a bitch who I tried to help and now he's walking away with the car. It's the fact that he sat there and lied and got away with it. It's the fact that I tried to do the right thing and got screwed and it hurts.

And I need y'alls help, please. :cry: What do I do????

On a positive note, I didn't think about drinking which would probably eventually lead to my death, instead, I thought of killing him. So there IS progress. ;)


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Postby Victor » Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:56 pm


1. you called your sponsor
2. you did not drink
3. you reached out for suggestions here

all these positives keeping your program alive in my opinion is sooooo much greater than the giving into old thinking stinking drinking as your sponsor has suggested keep praying and dont give up talk with your lawyer see what other routes you may pursue goodluck and good job not drinking about!!!

vic (the expert in stinking drinking thinking wanna get even with the sob !!) recovering alkie :D

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Postby sunlight » Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:37 pm

Been thinking about you all day, but first I want to say what a victory not to drink over something so upsetting!

I had a big setback in the resentment department today & I won't go into the details, that's for the 4th step!

Iwas tired, hungry & angry & I thought - how easy it is to revert to crappy behavior! But I started immediately with the prayer (I think it's a prayer. It is to me.) on pg 67 of the BB:"This is a sick man. How can I be helpful to him?God save me from being angry. Thy will be done."

How I used to hate that! I mean if the man's sick that means I'm better than him,right? cuz I'm praying for the sicko. And if I'm better, how come he comes out smelling like a rose & I'm just smelling? And on & on & on...

But the "save me from being angry" part was what I held onto like a life raft cuz I KNOW where anger can take me. I can't afford it. I have to do whatever it takes to get it out of me. It pollutes me, & I'm trying to go green! :mrgreen:

I was about to call my sponsor, wondering if I should do a 4th step, when I asked God to remove it & busied myself making a pumpkin pie. By the time it was done baking, I was at peace.

It isn't magic. For me, it's taking my mind off the problem & putting it on God. On his love,mercy,kindness and yes, justice. How he made the pumpkin grow for the pie, How he helps me grow everyday. How He's given me SO much & I am so grateful...

There's a part in the 12x12 that came to mind (pg105) "When these things happen, we should not think too ill of ourselves. We should simply resume prayer as soon as we can,doing what we know to be good for us."

Let the lawyer take care of the legal things & you take care of Julie. :)

My love & prayers, Sunlight

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Postby Dallas » Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:19 pm

No matter how much faith or confidence that I have...
No matter how much I plead and beg in prayer...
No matter how convinced I am of God's will...
And, no matter if it's a right or wrong thing
and I'm totally in the right...
Things are not going to go my way.

I know that from hundreds of experiences.

So, what do I do?

I laugh at myself.
And, I tell myself...
"Well, I guess it's time for me to start growing up a little bit
and realize that regardless of anything...
No matter what...
Things are not going to go my way
Regardless of what I do.

For me, it's a Spiritual Awakening.
I realize that I have been forced once again
to make an incrimental, unwanted movement forward
towards maturity.

Dang how I hate that word... sometimes.

But, in the end -- I did pray once upon a time
for God to help me grow up and at least appear
like a mature adult would appear.

Sometimes, I've had to ask myself "What would an adult do?"

And, "How would a mature adult respond?"

And, most often "How would a mature adult sober alcoholic that desires to maintain his sobriety respond?" :lol: :lol: :lol:

Maybe, for me... that's what real surrender is.

It's becoming aware that "I'm not always in charge!"

And, "Things are not ALWAYS going to go the way that I think they should."

Then, I pick myself up,
dust myself off...
Have a good laugh at myself and ask...

"Dallas... Just who and what do you think you are that you're not?" :lol: :lol:

I wish you the best. I know how frustrating these type experiences can be.

Another question I ask myself is:
"Is there a way... that I can be okay with it.
Can I accept life as it is -- even when it's not as I think it should be..
and still stay happy, sober, joyous and free.

What comes to my mind right now are the first few sentences that Bill W. wrote for Step 10, in the 12 & 12 Book


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Postby garden variety » Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:08 pm

Hi Julie,

I'm sorry your court appointment turned sour.

I believe there are certain circumstances and outcomes that really are not "God's will", they just happen. God as I understand Him will not force a young man like Tyson to be truthful. He won't force you or me to be truthful. You and me know this to be true from our past. Think about it.

How many times have you known and understood "God's will", and you followed your own will instead? If you or me didn't follow God's direction in a situation, how can the outcome possibly be "God's will"? It isn't. Plain and simple. For me, if I don't follow God's direction, the outcome in my life will not be His will for me. Somewhere down the line, I will pay a price for that.

But what about the "innocent victims" of my choice not to follow "God's will"? Is the outcome "God's will" for them? I think not. Like the book says "God didn't do it." So what is "God's will" for the other human when the outcome of "my will" causes distress to her. Ouch! That hurts thinking about it because I know how deep of a hurt "my will" caused other human beings.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but...


(I swear I remember how much it irritated me to hear Dallas go on about "Into Action" or "action, and more action". Now look at me preaching the same message - see how "change" works?)

Julie, you have a right to be "made whole". I think the answers to many troubles are right there in the book. Well at least the book has a great set of instructions that will help me find answers. Look at this on page 83:

"We should be sensible, tactful, considerate and humble without being servile or scraping. As God's people we stand on our feet; we don't crawl before anyone."

For me, that is flawless advice that will work in ANY situation, "fair or foul". It defines how I should relate to a fellow human being and it also tells me how I should relate to myself. It serves as a building block of "unselfish constructive action".

If you hadn't noticed, I'm a passionate man. I don't like purposeful wrongdoing done to me or to anyone. Point blank - the kid was wrong (as you described it). And guess what? He's going to repeat this performance because it was "reinforced" - his (anti-social) behavior was rewarded. There will be another "innocent victim" like you that crosses his path. Or maybe the next "innocent victim" might not be as kind as you. Maybe the next "innocent victim" might not be so innocent and put a hit on the kid. Then we can be in the realm of lives of human beings at stake.

Also, the issue here is not directly related to sobriety, it looks like an "outside issue". So anything anyone says who is a member of the fellowship is nothing more than an opinion, and it does not represent the views of AA. That includes me. I believe in this matter, "Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues..." (Tradition Ten). So what I'm saying to you, Julie, is only my opinion. What I hope to convey is how I would approach this matter in a way that falls within the boundaries of the program and the fellowship.

I hate to admit this, but it's probably pretty obvious that I will go out to the edge of those "boundaries". You might choose to do that, too. But at the same time, you might not be wrong pursuing a legitimate solution while praying the "resentment prayer" for Tyson. If it were me, I would keep the kid in my prayers because a hanging onto a resentment can be fatal to an alcoholic. So that is one "unselfish constructive action" that the book tells me to do.

You've set the stage for the next "unslefish constructive action". This is so beautiful, Julie. What you said looks to me like it's coming from your soul, and God can I ever dentify with a soul that cries out in pain. You said "I don't even think it's the car anymore. Its about this lil son of a bitch who I tried to help and now he's walking away with the car." I can identify with everything you said, Julie. That comes straight from your heart. Julie - that is passionate. That's because I can recognize passion when I see it.

Julie, the way I understand God, passion is not a character defect. Some might say that their "God" was/is a very passionate man, too. Who "paid the price" in an event that has been called "The Passion". I also sense anger, which I think is not a character defect IF it stays within the boundaries which the book gives me (from the quotes above). Now if I mix "passion" with "anger", boy all hell WILL break loose! That is like mixing nitro-glycerine. So for me there has to be another ingredient. That is "SELF-CONTROL". You see the book says I need to be "sensible, tactful, considerate" and so on.

So when I mix this whole pile of ingredients in your "case", this is what I come up with.

~It's no longer the car, but a spiritual principle that is being challenged.
~If the perpetrator is allowed to walk away with no consequence, another innocent victim WILL cross the path of this young man. They might get injured like you. They might retaliate in a way that will cost lives. I honestly need to ask myself "What is my responsibility to my fellow man?"
~You are passionate and angry, and it isn't beyond you or me to be destructive.


If it were me, I would see this as an opportunity. As always, I would pray just like it says in the book on page 86 asking God "before we begin to direct our thinking, especially asking that it be divorced from self-pity, dishonest or self-seeking motives."

Then, I would take the emotion of ANGER, and instead of allowing it to chew away at my serenity, I would open another "gateway" with the "character strength" within me that I know as "passion". I would also use the spiritual energy from my anger to motivate me to use the spiritual principle of "Seeking" that I get from step 11. I would let anger motivate me to be "fearless and thourough" in seeking and hopefully finding a legitimate (READ:LEGAL) solution that will (unselfishly) prevent another innocent person to suffer harm at the hands of a wreckless young man - WHILE I pray for that young man, because I know he is sick, but I also know that his life will be in danger if he is left to believe that his anti-social behaviors will be rewarded.

I would use the manner of dealing with the situation just like it says in the book: "We should be sensible, tactful, considerate and humble without being servile or scraping. As God's people we stand on our feet; we don't crawl before anyone." . This adds the measure of SELF-CONTROL I need to keep "anger" and "passion" from exploding into something worse than a broken windshield.

If I do all of that to the best of my ability, I can lay my head on my pillow at night and not have any regrets. That is the "new freedom" I have. I don't have to be the "victim" any more - never again. I do my best to serve God and those around me, and that is all I need to do. I can then be assured that whatever the outcome, it will be God's will for me. I also try to remember that whatever the outcome "acceptance" is the path that's best for me. The simplest thing I need to understand about acceptance is what acceptance is not: acceptance is not running away or fighting.

Am I "fighting anything"? Maybe or maybe not. I know that if I see myself "struggling" to do what is "right" and using what the book says as my guide, then I am fighting. But if I'm "working" toward an outcome by using CONSTRUCTIVE ACTION, then I won't be producing a failure or manufacturing my own misery. "Working" is not the same as "fighting". CONSTRUCTIVE ACTION NEVER FAILS. It will probably be hard work but not a struggle or a fight. I can't really "fight" with someone I'm praying for anyway.

I don't know the specifics of your situation, but I don't need to know. You have "outside professionals" at your hand that can help you better with the specifics than I ever could. There are probably a number of things that may bring about a change in the outcome from what just happened in court.

One more thing I always try to remember:

"If I change the way I look at things, the things I look at change."

Be kind to yourself Julie. You don't have to do anything you'll regret. We are told that we only have to follow "a few simple rules", and we can enjoy a lifetime of sobriety.

For me that's one heck of a good deal!

God bless you in your decisions.


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Postby Jools » Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:18 pm

Whew, long night in my head last night. How do y'all stop thinking about something like this? I prayed and prayed and prayed over and over again.

Thanx for your replies. Y'all reallly help me a lot. I appreciate you pointing out the positive as I seem to focus on the negative right now.

Vic, it's nice to know that I'm not alone and this made me laff........
vic (the expert in stinking drinking thinking wanna get even with the sob !!) recovering alkie Very Happy:D
Really, I think I should be further along than I am and don't give myself a break and take this AS a growing experience as Dallas suggested.

Sunlight....ya got a way with words, girl! This is great stuff!

It pollutes me, & I'm trying to go green!

And if I'm better, how come he comes out smelling like a rose & I'm just smelling?

Dallas you wrote:

Another question I ask myself is:
"Is there a way... that I can be okay with it.
Can I accept life as it is -- even when it's not as I think it should be..
and still stay happy, sober, joyous and free.

That's what I WANT, I just don't know how. I mean, I have helped people out b4 and gotten screwed and it just took time. Is that what the case is going to be this time?

I dunno, I'll just keep praying for him and trusting that God is eventually going to clear my head.

Take care y'all.


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Postby Jools » Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:49 pm

Oh, wow, Paul.

I didn't know you had posted a message before I sent mine. I cried when I read yours. And I thank you for giving me a solution that's right in line with the big book and helps me to take constructive action.

I'm shaking right now. I think I'll just go print this out, read it again and again tonight so I have it in my heart and in my head. And if I wake up tonight I will have it beside my bed and read it and KNOW that I'm doing what I need to do today.

I love you folks........

Oh and Dallas.........

"Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it."

As we work the first nine Steps, we prepare ourselves for the adventure of a new life. But when we approach Step Ten we commence to put our A.A. way of living to practical use, day by day, in fair weather or foul. Then comes the acid test: can we stay sober, keep in emotional balance, and live to good purpose under all conditions?

He's working with me on that...I KNOW He is.


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Postby Dallas » Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:31 am

Good luck praying for the other guy. When I've done that -- it has always made matters worse for me. I've never found it anywhere in the Doctors Opinion, or the Program of Recovery (pgs 1 through 164) that indicates that I should be praying for any other person.

I would suggest that if anyone wants to use the 12 Steps, the Program of Recovery... as a guide and design for living... that they read the black ink and not the white space. (Between lines is a dangerous place for an Alkie! )

Big Book page 66 wrote:If we were to live, we had to be free of anger. The grouch
and the brainstorm were not for us. They may be the
dubious luxury of normal men, but for alcoholics these things
are poison

What's more important... to be right... or to take poison?

Only you can decide for yourself.

Some people have a right to be angry. Some have a right to drink alcohol. How does it help anything -- knowing you have rights to do and be like normal men and women... if you really are different (in mind and body) than other people?

Some other alkie wants to take poison? So be it. We're never forced to do anything. God doesn't even force His kids to be happy... or to breath! :lol: :lol:

Enjoy! I'd rather be happy than be right.... :lol:


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Postby garden variety » Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:41 am

I don't know what matters one way or another with an opinion on an outside issue. What works for me might not work for another, maybe not even one alcoholic.

This is how anger affects me, and this is my belief about anger. Anger is an emotion given to me God. For me, I don't have any doubts that anger will NEVER be removed from me. For me, to ask God to remove anger completely is like asking God to make me something other than human. I don't think it will happen and I won't stake my life on anger being completely removed.

When I have an anger issue, to keep it from turning into a resentment, I pray for the person that has wronged me. And if there is a legitimate avenue of pursuing relief, I will "allow" anger to motivate me to do what is right, whether it's following a civil or criminal procedure, or whether it's writing to a manufacturer for a refund or adjustment for a faulty product. In this respect, for me anger serves a positive purpose. Also, in my life, the God of my understanding is pretty capable of helping me to transform my anger into positive constructive action. He is the Principal, I'm His agent. When I need it most, He will step in and do what I cannot do for myself. I really appreciate this Principal/agent relatiionship.

I'm not a pacifist. I'm an activist. I will use my constitutional right to protest. I've walked side by with Palestinian people who were protesting in front of my office building. I believe that a loving God would not want anyone not to have a homeland. I've been involved in American Indian activism, not as much now, but my people have rights that are guaranteed by treaties. So when those things that affect my brother who lives in South Dakota on a reservation become an obvious wrong, I have certain rights and remedies to pursue. My brother has been sober 13 years and is active in the fellowship in South Dakota. It's a different world out there, and if you're not sober and not an activist, you'll get eaten alive. You will lose the gift of your spirituality and your familiy's heritage.

You know it wasn't until 1978 that we were "allowed" to practice our sacred ceremonies? "Freedom of Religion" is something a lot of folks take for granted. Maybe it was here for most folks who's ancestors came here from Europe, but we had to WORK at bringing our "outlawed" ceremonies in front of Congress until 1978. It took that long for an act of Congress to allow us to practice our beliefs - the same way Catholics or Jews practice their beliefs. And I'm not talking about the "Peyote People" either, or ceremoinies that folks mistakenly believe involve gettig high.

Do we pray for those who have wronged us. Yes. You bet. We even love those who hate us. Do we stand around and laugh at ourselves and say it really doesn't matter that certain people and institutions continue to try to literally steal what our grandfathers paid for with their blood? No I'm not gonna have a laugh on myself. I'm going to stand up and pursue what is right because there is this thing called a "Constitution" that allows me to at least try to get back what was wrongly taken from me or my brother or my sister. Why would I not use a "tool" that is there specifically for me to use to at least try to restore what has wrongly been taken?

It could be you too. I have seen women harassed, hit on , and chased away from the rooms of AA by predetory men. Do I feel anger about it? What do you think? Is it my responsibility as a trusted servant to try and protect a woman that is vulnerable? Or would it be better for me to apply "rule 62" and laugh away a serious problem in my home group? I've been a meetng secretary. I'll call a group conscience, and we brought about a positive change - and the result was once again the meeting became a "mixed" meeting where women alcoholics felt safe to show up again. It is my anger that motivates me in those situations to do what I know is my responsibility.

I love sobriety. I love AA. I love people. I work a program of recovery as it's suggested. It has kept me sober for a little while. For me, most of the time I will laugh at myself because the thing I'm disturbed about doesn't amount to a hill of beans. But there are instances when a wrong is not a laughing matter. I think what Julie has described is one of those things.

I'm not going to suggest to her that it's "dangerous" for her to use a "constitution" or whatever legal means she has at her hands to try to recover something stolen from her that belongs to her. This is an outside issue, and she needs help and hope. It's quite possible that she can recover what is hers in a legitimate way.

I get weary of hearing folks say "be careful" because they have an opinion about some issue outside of AA, an issue which AA has no opinion about, and that I'm somehow obligated to see things their way - and their way is the AA way. It happens too often and sometimes its just a lot of hot air.

I take this seriously: If anyone anwhere reaches out for help, I want the hand of AA to be there, for that I am responsible. Well you know sometimes that gets messy. Sometimes helping "anyone anywhere" gets ugly. Sometimes it means getting personally involved with someone who is in deep doo-doo, and it also gets splattered all over me. Sometimes it means showing up in court and taking a stand under oath. Sometimes it's being in the midst of stinky, smelly, loud, and abnoxious people while they are actively drinking. Sometimes its actively loving a loved one that is still using. Sometimes it means getting my heart broken or torn out by the roots. "Be careful" - what does that mean? Just turn my head the other way and let someone else give their hand?

OK so maybe I am a little bit passionate. So maybe I get angry and experience feelings that some folks in the fellowship worry will lead me back to drinking. I wouldn't recommend anyone to do as I do or act as I act in some situations. I'm far from perfect. Real far. But I have experienced "a new freedom and a new happiness" in spite of myself. I'm not a worthless punk that causes grief and hardship anymore. I care deeply about a lot of things and a lot of people. As a result, I've been known to find myself right on the edge in some pretty wild and even dangerous "adventures" that came after having had a spiritual awakening.

But let me tell you what. The obsession or desire to pick up a drink has not happened. Sobriety works for me. The steps work in "fair or foul" situations. I can enthusiasitically attest to that. I realize that it's proabably nothing less than Divine Intervention that I can stand up today with a smile on my face and find joy and happiness, and not need to pick up a drink or even have the compulsion.

Nobody has to live like I live. It's not a requirement. No one has to take the risks that I take - it's just where this thing I call a "gift" of passion leads me. The good part is that if I don't have anything that you want in the way I apply the program to my life, there's always another man or woman that might inspire you better - and maybe they can also help you to be "safer" with your sobriety.

Thanks for being here, all of you, and thanks for letting me share.

May God bless you always, and have a Happy Thanksgiving!


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Postby Dallas » Thu Nov 27, 2008 12:40 am

Paul wrote:OK so maybe I am a little bit passionate.

Thanks for the clarification, Paul!!!

Gee. I was beginning to think that you might have gotten nerved-up, angry or disturbed -- at me, for something I wrote! :lol: :lol:

I didn't know that anger... was an outside issue! :lol:

Sweet dreams..............


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