Step12.com

[garden variety]

[Dallas]

Imagine this scenario: A new alcoholic comes to A.A., and we explain the necessity of sanity being restored.

The new alcoholic that has not yet had sanity restored shows up to the A.A. group's business meeting -- and wants to make some decisions.


Then, it's explained to him, this concept of 12 Traditions.

However, since sanity has not yet been restored -- how the heck is he going to have any clue what we're talking about in regards to Traditions?

And, in regards to taking actions based on the traditions as "we just do them and the results follows"... think back to what you thought about the 12 Steps -- before you took them -- and ask yourself where you would be today had you continued taking the actions of the Steps as you understood them.

For me, the 12 Steps didn't work -- even though I was working them. Why was this? Because I invariably discovered, later on, the actions that I had been taking, that what I thought was taking the Steps was in no way what was intented as "taking the Steps."

Three things that I think are worth mentioning.

Unity
Recovery
Service

Unity came first, because the group was here before I got here. They were recovered members of A.A. that had formed the group. If they had not been here, I might have rented a room, bought a big book, bought a few bottles of vodka, and started AA "as I understood it." (Recovered AA's would recognize this as "stinking thinking." )

So -- if I joined the group -- my stinking thinking would be present during what recovered AA's would have been desiring to be an "informed group conscience."

Recovery: Until recovery has taken place there is not understanding of any of the Steps or Traditions.

Service: We must serve -- to recovery.

And, after we have begun to recover, and serve, then we can become part of the solution -- and we'll gain an understanding of Spiritual Principles "after" we have had a spiritual awakening.

Dallas B

[garden variety]

Hey Dallas,

I understand what you're saying completely.

My home group is HUGE and there are a lot of new folks that join. We have one major business meeting a year, and yes, those who have not had their sanity restored participate. Usually they distract everything and everybody, throw in their two cents and effect the group business outcome to a degree, then they disappear a few weeks later never to be seen again.

But I say "to a degree". Which goes back to the "democracy" built in to the 12 Traditions. When a group calls a "business meeting" or a "group conscience", the veteran members had better show up unless they want the outcome of the group left to "insanity". That's what I learned being a secretary. The group I was secretary with had one "business meeting" and elected officers with only 4 people participating. The home group was larger about 25 - 30, and the meeting was announced, but only 4 members showed up. I was one of them, but guess what? I was outnumbered by 3 others who were, let me say, "less sane".

Their choices and decisions pretty much deralied the group and were not at all in line with a sane method of running the group (it had been sane up until that meeting). Today that group struggles, and it is in constant chaos with only a handful of regulars. Their next secretary was arrested for DV shortly after he was elected. People were leaving the group left and right. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the group was fine while I was secreatary and when I left it fell apart - even though it did - that's just how the timing went. It wasn't about me at all - it was the traditions working as they should. I left the group because I saw the writing on the wall and I tried to change it but couldn't. But in the long run, that's how the traditions are supposed to work. An AA group is a true form of democracy, unlike anything I've ever seen or experienced before, and I thank God for the Traditions as much as I do for the Steps.

My sponsor has 30 years of sobriety and I have only nine years, yet he asks me on a regular basis to teach him more about the traditions and share my experience with them as secretary. That's because he's never been in an officer position before, and he makes it his business to be sure our home group survives and remains healthy and with singleness of purpose.

One time he got so upset, he started interviewing other home group members about an issue. After the meeting, several other longtimers were fussing back and forth with him - I'd call a "cat-fight" but it wasn't that bad, but it was heated and didn't have to go that way. He went about things the wrong way because he didn't "understand" the traditions.

I called him aside, and told him about the tradition that was applciable which was number two. Then I went on and explained how it's supposed to work in a group. His jaw hit the ground and his eyes got huge. He had no clue, even after 30 years, that the 12 Traditions were there to address his issue. Another issue came up with my sponsor that was getting him riled up again. This time, we talked about it before our home group. He came at me with a bit of an "attitude" at first because he was again "worked up" - He kind of hit me with "Well since you know more about the Traditions than me, then what do you do with this issue?"

I zeroed in on the 1st Tradition this time. I had to go over every single word with him at least three or four times. Then he stepped back and scratched his head and said "You mean if....?" and put his situation into the tradition and worked out the solution on his own using the tradition. I said yuppers - you're 100% on the money meaning his solution was in line with the 1st Tradition. He smiled and the light went on. He looked at me and said "You know these 12 Traditions are really important! I'm gonna get out my 12 and 12 and re-read it." How's that for irony? The new guy teaching the longtimer.

Since that day, he has done exactly what he said. He re-read his 12 and 12, and now he brings up the traditions all the time. It's like it added a new dimension to his sobriety.

All that to say, even though he's got 30 years and is a fantastic example of living the steps and a perfect sposor for me, he was getting "worked up" into reactions that were running on anger and other strong emotions that had to do with the group's survival or group business. In other words, even though he had the "spiritual awakening", he was still handling group issues not very much different than a newcomer who doesn't understand the traditions.

But in all the experiences I've seen with the traditions, I can say from the bottom of my heart that they work and you don't have to understand how or why. I've seen them work in an ugly way that destroyed the group and I seen them work in positive ways that bring strength to the group. It's not about understanding them - it's all about following them and taking the actions just like the steps. The traditions are just as miraculous to the group as the steps are to the person. And it all goes back to those 3 "Essential" ingredients needed for recovery: the HOW! Honesty, Open-mindedness, and Willingness.

But the other big thing with the 12 Traditions is, just like with the steps, in order to do them to the best of my ability, It's best to have another human being who's had a spiritual awakening, to TEACH them to me. I didn't have that benefit, so I had to "sink or swim" as secreatary. No I didn't understand the traditions at that time, but thank God that came after I re-did the steps with my second sponsor, and the spiritual awakening was there. All I did was exactly how I teach them now. I followed them word for word - completely and thoroughly - and I didn't have clue how they would work or why, but by golly they worked like charm. Today it's gone full circle, and I'm someone in my home group that folks with much more 24 hours than me can come to for help with learning the traditions.

But if I was new and still "insane", and I didn't have a sponsor or an elder to "teach" me, or I didn't even want to learn, then I'd be just like you said. I'd be half-measuring the traditions and going all over hell with my own definitions and interpretations. Then it would be look out world, I'm a fool, and I'm a home group member and I get to decide home group business. Hopefully, there would be more than 4 people showing up to those business meetings - I tell you what!

[musicmode]

Great stuff...and great questions..I, too...enjoy questions like this.

With me, and with my example of Tradition 10...I didn't understand either, the steps or the traditions, however...I'm one of those people who has to go thru it once before I get the hang of it--like a card game...explain to me all the rules before we start playing...I'll be lost before ya deal...take me thru a 'dummy' hand, and explain as I go...then I catch on. Tradition 10, was one I felt I could 'try on for size'...I wanted to get my toes into something, and this looked as though it were something I could maybe try, in terms of practicing these principles in all our affairs. I began to see, in fact...by saying: This is an outside issue for me, that...this 'stuff' would work...mainly, by trying it and applying it. Perhaps one could call it "blind faith", as I had no where's near connected the idea that the 12 Traditions were Spiritual Principles...that came later on. When this realization occured, I could then see that, in fact...I was practicing "spiritual principles" . I sort-a then began to grasp a little fibre of this program.

As for question 2...I'll be back on that one...I actually just dropped by for a "quick coffee", and to see who was around (hi Dallas, I think you were on as a user when I tapped in). I've seen how "self-will" can run riot and upset those in a group. Stand-by...

In love and tolerance,
Anne M.

[Dallas]

All the meetings that I attend, I go to what hasn't been figured out yet, if it's a Club or a Group that has many groups that are part of the group....

At business meetings they discuss things like "Well. Is 90 days sober long enough to be a GSR, even if a guy is still using drugs, to be the GSR, or is that asking too much?" Or... "is 30 days too long and too much to ask of an alcoholic to be sober, to be chairing the meetings. And, what do you do on the days, when the most sobriety anyone has is 24 hours, to be chairing the meeting? And, if no one is sober in the meeting -- who should we let chair the meeting, so that we can keep the doors open for the newcomer who might come in looking to get sober?"

Most all the local "Old-timers" with what they call "Quality Sobriety" attend other meetings -- because they don't want to get what the newcomers have got.

Unless, it's on Popular Days -- when the Old-timers from other groups show up to be seen and heard espousing their profundities of ideas that they think about.

The Old-timers don't show up for the business meetings.... where things like group conscience or Traditions might be discussed -- and they avoid the night meetings -- when too many newcomers are present that it might affect their quality sobriety. Hey, it's not uncommon, at night, to have a few, and sometimes several still suffing alcoholics stumble in to the night meetings at the Club!

And, those Old-timers, in their exclusive clicky type meetings, where you have to be a friend of a friend of a friend that's important in their Group, is the only one who can share -- talk about how important it is to be helping the newcomers, and the responsibility of A.A. to keep it's hand stretched out in service to the alcoholic who is still suffering!

The reason that I prefer to go to the night meetings at this little club, is because it's full of newcomers and still suffering, still drinking alcholics! It makes it real easy for me to find a newcomer that I can reach out to, and hopefully to share something of value to them, so that someday, they too, might be able to become an Old-timer, and be welcomed into those exclusively clicky Old-timer's meetings -- where they can hear about how important it is to still be reaching out to help the still suffering alcoholics!

On some nights, it could seem like a war zone. You never know what to expect. On one Saturday night, a lady drunk living in the back of a drunk-house with her drunk boyfriend got stabbed in the back in the alley, two doors up from the parking lot of the club. Her and her drunk boyfriend used to always come in to the meetings for coffee and to use the phone, and to try to borrow a few bucks for a drink. And, at the business meetings, the Group would discuss whether and how long those two drunks should be banned form coming in to the building.

I still don't attend the group business meetings, unless they specifically request me to be there. I know I'll be out-numbered, and that alcoholic-insanity will prevail in the decisions that are made.

Trying to share and be helpful to the new guy who wants it, and the guys and girls who are still coming back -- even if they haven't been able to be sober in a meeting.

[garden variety]

Wow Dallas. Great post!

It really helps me to see things clearer when you (or anyone else) posts things that way and your feelings spill out.

There is such a big difference in those meetings you go to and the ones we have here. We also have clubs, but some sort of have this attitude that "keeps out" - kinda opposite of what you're describing. They "keep out" longtimers because they (we) comment about singleness of purpose and many of us don't really know how to carry a message to drug users. They keep their club leads limited to "drug and alcohol" leads and some sound like NA leads. And if I comment about singleness of purpose, I damn near get my butt whooped! I stay away from that club.

But we also have been taught those "old time AA" unwritten things too. Like "clubs" are not AA because they exclude people and let in people - the clubs around here are the ones that are like you described as "clicky".
The old-timers and long-timers around here let it be known exactly what meetings they go to. And if you don't like "real alcoholic" leads without detailed "drug adventures", you stay away. Not that they haven't used drugs, but they respect singleness of purpose. But away from the podium they will talk about other issues if you need or want help. They say things like, "I won't mention drugs in my story out of respect for AA, but if you have an issue that involves drugs we can talk after the meeting."

The oldtimers and longtimers walk their talk, and they won't think twice about putting somebody in their place - sort of like Don here online. In Akron and Cleveland, if you want to hang with the longtimers, you really can't be full of BS because someone will call you on it. And I mean I've heard guys with 15-20 years say I won't go to your home group - those guys are like AA Nazi's. The guys that say that are still holding onto things that they probably would do better letting go of - but if you don't want what we have, there are plenty and plenty and plenty of other meetings to attend. But you'll find literally hundreds and hundreds of years of sobriety at our home group - and I love it.

Oh and the oldtimers. Man there's this guy I call regular who has 47 years and you always see him with a new man stuck to him like velcro. It's a different neck of the woods bro, but I'm beginning to see just how different.

Thanks so much for showing me with your feelings - I need to hear stuff like that!

God bless

[Danni]

I've had a sheltered experience in A.A.

In our smaller meetings the Secretary was required to have at lease one year sober. The GSR was required to have 3 years sober. Intergroup Reps 1 year sober. Larger meetings required 5 years sober and a larger meeting required 10 years sober to be the main speaker. In our H&I Panels, 1 year sober was the minimum, with some panels requiring 3 years and 5 years sober. Before the GSR elections the GSR would be asked questions about the 12 Traditions before the election. In the business meetings and steering committee meetings it was necessary to be a past secretary of the meeting to be able to vote on group conscience matters. I think this was good for the group because it kept a strong foundation of A.A. structure and Tradition. The important group decisions were made by sober members of the group who had a history of sobriety and service. All members could vote for elected positions.

Love & hugs,

Danni

[Dallas]

I remember the days when I could attend the good old-fashioned type of A.A. meetings that helped me establish a foundation in my A.A. recovery. But, then I moved away from a big city to moved to a small town that doesn't offer that luxury. Each time I get to visit a larger city I gravitate to the meetings that are focused on A.A. Kind of like what we try to do here at Step12.com -- keeping it focused on A.A. for those of us who love A.A. and love the things about A.A. that make it A.A. and not Some-other A.

I feel a responsibility to be in the place where I can be most helpful. The clickity meetings don't need my help. And, I'm much better at 12 Stepping newcomers than I am at trying to reform those who've got it figured out.

So, I figure that God want's me to be in the place where I can be of maxium service to A.A. In newcomer meetings -- where it gets real crazy, and where I'm out-numbered, where I can share in the same precise way that I would share in an Old-timer meeting, talking about alcoholism, the difference between hard-drinking problem-drinking non-alcoholics and the real alcoholic, singleness of purpose, the 12 Steps, the Big Book, and what A.A. recovery has done for me.

A few years ago I started looking at it and asking myself questions like "If the A.A. Old-timers are gone and can't handle the heat -- how are those newcomers ever going to hear the A.A. message? Who will be there to share A.A. with them? How will they ever have the opportunity to hear that there is a different way to do it, other than the way they are doing it?"

For me, these are the alcoholics who are still suffering. They want sobriety. They want recovery. Many have bounced in and out of different 12 Step programs and rehab centers, and had their heads packed full of crap that isn't going to work. So, what do we do, as A.A. members? Just give up on them, let them die, and think that their alcoholic insanity will get a brief moment of clarity, that they will come seeking some "real deal" that's being held in closet and private meetings?

Some may find it -- while thousands of others perish in their disease.

Sure, I have some who look at me and say "Oh! You go there? Why don't you go somewhere with us where you can get quality sobriety?"

The Old-timers who passed this deal on to me, said, that my guiding principle was supposed to be that I was "giving away quality sobriety" not going to try to find it and get it for myself.

They also said things like "as long as your going to meetings because you need a meeting -- you'll always need a meeting."

Or, things like "your job is not to go to the meetings to try to get something for you -- your job is to go there to see what you can give to the guy who is still suffering. As long as you're going to get something -- you'll always have an empty place inside you that needs to get something."

They said things like "A.A. works just the opposite of how we learned that things work in the real world. Here, to get something, we give away something, and that's how we get. We get what we need, by giving away what we need -- to the other guy. And, this is what gets us out of Self and keeps us out of Self, so that we can recovery."

Dallas

[Dallas]

BTW: I forgot to mention, that on Monday nights, I Co-chair a meeting at 8 p.m., with a guy that I sponsor, and that meeting is always on the 12 Traditions, and how they relate to A.A., the AA Group, and AA as a whole, and how we can practice the principles of the traditions in our lives and relationships, on our jobs, in business and outside of A.A. And, how to incorporate those principles into our own individual recovery and in our problem solving. Each week, we rotate through each one of the 12 Traditions as the topic for the meeting.

And, on Tuesday nights at 8 p.m., I Chair a Speaker/participation meeting on the 12 Steps. Normal format is that I speak for about 50 minutes on one of the 12 Steps, starting at Step One, and each week going on to the next Step, until we finish up on Step 12. Then we repeat the cycle through the Steps, again. Sometimes, we'll take one or two weeks at the end, and it will be on A.A. History and the A.A. Roots. We usually have about 10 minutes of questions and answers at the end of the meeting... unless I go over-time. And, we'll always stay late after the meeting to meet with anyone who has additional questions, a burning desire, or that needs individual help. At these meetings I try to prepare hand-outs or use illustrations, so that those who attend can follow along and have something to take with them when they leave.

These are good solid singleness of purpose A.A. meetings. No crap. No B.S. No jive. All Big-Book-based solution and recovery oriented. It's two nights a week where if someone doesn't want to hear A.A. they can stay home and watch TV or pick another meeting that feels more comfortable to them, or more inline with what they choose to understand.

They are open A.A. meetings and sometimes members from other 12 Step fellowships come to listen and learn some of the principles that can help them in their recovery. Naturally, in keeping with A.A.'s Traditions -- only alcoholics actually participate in the meetings.

And, if anyone is ever in the area on Monday and Tuesday nights -- I sure welcome you to come and attend!!!

Dallas

[musicmode]

The last town I lived in before moving here, I was told that the old-timers meeting was a "mens only" group, and was given the general sense that it was a 'clickety' type of group that you describe. I believed that story, too. I got to the point, though, where I was craving the type of meeting that is similar to what we have here at Step12, and that is the singleness of purpose. Based on my share after one particular meeting at what was my home group, after the meeting, a couple of the old-timers who had visited approached me to shake my hand, and one suggested to me that I was welcome to attend "their" meeting anytime. I couldn't help but look a little surprised, and I said what I had believe, that I thought that their meeting was a mens only group. Now, they looked surprised, and said that, indeed, anyone could go to their meeting if they so chose. The next meeting that this old-timers group held, I went. And, it was such-a-relief. Here was a group who did not shun the spiritual angle, and their meetings were directly out of the Big Book, and so, singleness of purpose. This was what I had been missing, and what I had been craving. I had missed out because I believed what I had been told by members of this other group. I'm not saying that this is the way of all old-timers group, but, I'm still a relatively new puppy at this ball-game. The old-timers do, indeed, have something I need, they know their program. It's actually saddening to me to see, that in fact, there is a generation gap in this fellowship. I know of one old-timer here who is openly mocked and criticized at the only group available to her, and she has a lot of experience, a lot strength, and hope to share. She feels that the 'young ones' don't want to hear...she feels this way because she sees the wave off sluffs and the rolls of the eyes around the table while she shares, so she doesn't go. She relies on phone contacts and literature.

As for question 2: If individuals in the group do not already have a conscience that is guided and directed by a loving God, the how can they possibly allow God to express Himself in their conscience-which collectively would form the group's conscience?

When I first moved in to the last town I lived in...it was about a week afterwords that they held their monthly business meeting, I was invited to stay. Eager to be a part of my new group, I accepted the invitation. Among other things discussed, it had already been decided, in group conscience, that the clubhouse would post a newly painted sign. This had already been decided on, and the decision was to proceed. One member had volunteered to construct it (an oldtimer), all they needed was someone to paint it. I volunteered to paint it. For me, this little project was about service, and it would be a fabulous opportunity to connect to the group. I would work with this old-timer, and it would keep me sober. Okay...so, a few months later and some paint. The sign was finished in my own garage. I felt like I was contributing to my group...felt good. The old-timer came by to pick it up when it was finished, and he and I had ourselves a "tail-gate" meeting. This was AA. I was comfortable. The sign was posted, and a big happy ending, right? Wronn-ng.

For me, the purpose of the sign was over and done with. For me, it had nothing to do with how pretty it looked or anything else. Once the old-timer pulled out of my drive-way, for me, it was a finished project that had served its purpose for me. Next thing we know, all you know what breaks loose. Why? Because a couple of the members, who were on the executive, but did not show up for any business meetings, were profusely opposed to this sign. They weren't there for the meetings, so they knew nothing about it, and why weren't they informed or asked. (You see where this is going, right?). I have to admit, I found it all laughable--others did not. So now, there was this feud going on. The old-timer, you guessed it, went off to join this "men's only" meeting. The one lady, who I had yet to meet, when we met, and she put 2 and 2 together that I had painted it...wouldn't even look at me. . Long story short, another "business" meeting was held, the only business to be discussed was this sign...does it stay, or does it go? Each member got asked what they thought, so those who strongly opposed it (but were not at the previous meetings when this was initially discussed), were extremely vocal, and it was rather evident that their ears snapped shut when those who were for it spoke. When it came to my turn, I'd shared the story of a member that I knew who had been in the Navy, and when his time was finished, he decided to remain in the Far East to do some 'touring', one of the things was that he wanted to do was to check out some AA meetings, and there was one that, although it was in Arabic, if it weren't for the sign outside, he definitely would not have found it, so it's apparent other groups around the world, indeed, have signs posted, informing of meeting times. I'd also shared that, for me, the purpose of the sign was to contribute to my new group, and the highlight was the tail-gate meeting in my driveway. It really didn't matter to me one way or the other if it stayed or not. One of the people who was opposed openly admitted to being racist (ya...that's what I just said, right)...she heard one word I had said, that word was Arabic, and she heard nothing else. I felt like banging my head on the table. In the end, the sign was taken down. Those who opposed it...did not frequent meetings except for smatteringly, one not at all for months. They'd come in, made sure things went their way, and that was all. 3 years later (and about a month before I moved away from that town), I'd driven past this clubhouse and nearly ran over a pedestrian because, be darned...there was this sign??? O--kaa-aay??? Although I had made the oldtimers meeting my home group, I still attended the clubhouse and remained in contact. So, I got home, phoned one of the lady's and said: What the heck is that I just saw...in front of the clubhouse? I tell you what...gave a whole new meaning to baffling, let me tell ya? She giggled, asked if I liked it. I said, no...I'm puzzled...can't believe that this sign, obviously, was still an issue?? She said those who opposed it, none of them even live in this town now, so with them gone, the group conscience was to put it back up. Okay, I said...but hasn't the town evicted the group from this building (because the town wanted to turn it into a fine-arts center)? Yes, she says, they had to be out by the end of that month. Soooo, I said...why was the sign up , when, once again, it would have to come down anyway? She just laughed and said that they decided to put it back up, knowing they would have to take it down...just for the sake that they could put it up.

So, then...If individuals in the group do not already have a conscience (can't be a part of the "group conscience" decisions if you aren't even going to be there when the discussions and the deciding happens), that is guided and directed by a loving God, then...how can they possibly allow God to express Himself in their conscience-which collectively would form the group's conscience? The one lady who opposed the sign, who admitted to being racist, who also admitted to not believing in God (that's okay, too...not about to comment on someone else's belief), and who rarely attended meetings...how could she be a part of this group conscience? I don't ask this to ruffle feathers...just curious of different perspectives.

Keep the ball rolling--looking forward to reading the responses.

In love and tolerance,
Anne

[gunner48]

I really like the book 12 and 12. Bill W. and Dr. Bob wrote it for a reason. Not to replace the Big Book but for the reason they state in the introduction of the 12 and 12 ie: to share 18 years of collective expierence within the fellowship on how AA members recover, and how our society functions. This book also has not been changed since it was introduced in 1953.
In the forward of this book on page 17 it states , The book "alcoholics Anonymous became the basic text of the fellowship, and still is". This present volume (the 12 x 12) proposes to broaden and deepen the understanding of the Twelve Steps as written in the earlier work ( the Big Book).
page 18
It is hoped that this volume will afford all who read it a close-up view of the principles and forces which have made Alcoholics Anonymous what it is.
I have never used the 12 and 12 with a new person to work the steps. The guide of the Big Book does just fine. After they have built their foundation is when I introduce the 12 and 12 as a useful tool in recovery.

Love and Peace