- What to do? Help.

What to do? Help.




Discussions related to 12 Step Recovery and Treatment

Postby Tim » Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:31 am

Dallas wrote:For me, it seemed that the main point that I got out of his talk was: In many areas, where AA has grown significantly -- we seem to be forming a dependancy on the meetings... rather than spending time to improve our conscious contact with God... and relying on God, and doing the things that we must be doing to stay sober... and to make progress in our own spirituality.

Interest thoughts.

Dallas


Sitting in an AA meeting doesn't make you sober any more than standing in a garage makes you a car
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Postby Dallas » Fri Apr 09, 2010 12:39 pm

Thanks Tim! I'm going to use that one and pass it on!!!
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Postby Dallas » Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:40 am

Thanks Keith.

Yesterday, I ended up thinking about how old I'm getting all because of NA!!! :lol: :lol:

I can remember the days of the NA pure-est! Pot heads, crack heads, pill poppers, and tooters were not allowed! You were not considered a "real addict" unless you slammed heroin!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

When I first came into AA, I met some alkie-addicts... so I thought "Gee! I like that! An addict is way more cool than a drunk! I can be special!" So... I went to NA, too!!! I did it because... I considered that some of the things that I did... qualified me to be an alcoholic and an addict!

But, when I went to NA, they really grilled me... "What kind of drugs did you use? How did you use them?" We want to know if youi're a real dope fien! "Did you slam heroin?" I replied... Heck no! But, I did a bunch of other stuff... and they ran me out! They said "that other stuff is not Narcotics, dude!!!" -- "If it ain't narcotics... it don't matter what drug it was, you ain't welcome here!" :lol: :lol:

I guess their fellowship has gotten watered down a bit... the last few times that I've visited w/ them... they were letting ANYBODY in! :lol: :lol: And, the NA oldtimers...? couldnt find any!
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Postby gunner48 » Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:26 am

Hi, I'm gunner and I am an Alcoholic. I also have many other vices. Good news is that if I will treat my Alcoholism through the program of AA it will help with those other things, too. Practice these principles in all my affairs. Can't be a ex used car salesman if I'm still selling used cars.
Singleness of purpose is very important to me. Every time I hear someone introduce themselves as a and uh it makes us different wether they think so or not. I was terminaly unique when I came to AA, today I just want to be one of many. Alcoholism is the common tread that runs through us. Look at what we have in common and lets see if we can tread the needle of recovery. Remember if I am a zebra and the lions are hungry the best chance I have at not getting eaten is to be in the middle of the herd , not on the fringe so I can be sorted out, chased and taken down
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Postby Dallas » Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:48 pm

Thanks Gunner. Those are very timely words of wisdom that you shared! When we get away from our primary purpose and singleness of purpose -- we get watered down, too... and we lose our effectiveness of being able to do what we're called to do.

It's kind of like how I treat my truck, too. It's a Suburban, so I take it to the guys at the Chevy dealer to keep it serviced. They do what they do well, because their main focus is on Chevy. I could take it to a VW dealer, or to a shop closer down the street. The shop down the street used to be good -- until I found out they were missing things that could have been caught ahead of time -- before a problem -- and saved me tons of money on repairs.

When I'm w/ the Chevy guys -- I don't talk to them about Nissan or Toyota. If I want info about Nissan, I talk to the Nissan guys, and the Toyota guys about Toyotas. The Chevy guys will not be up to date on Toyota recalls and the Toyota guys won't be up to date on the Chevy recalls.

My point being: Why go w/ what makes more sense in taking care of my truck -- and giving less importance to the decisions I make in regards to taking care of the driver? Without the driver -- the truck will sit and rust and die, or go on to some other driver, anyway! :lol:

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Re: What to do, Help?

Postby Rain » Fri Sep 17, 2010 3:20 pm

One reason is that old timers that came in 30 years ago and put $1 in the basket are still just putting in that same $1 in the basket.
Another reason is that those old-timers refuse to adjust to the 21st century and insist that the newcomer must suffer through the program the hard way just like they did.
How dare they understand it quicker or grasp it better, than they did.

They love to say “Sit down, Shut Up, Take that Cotton of your Ears and Stick it in your Mouthâ€
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Postby PeaceJoy » Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:00 am

I find I get a lot of useful information from old timers. A lot of it is good information like how they did it and seeing that there is life after alcohol. But some info is more like "wow....I see you like to lecture and manners don't count anymore." That was the case the other day. A lady with 30+ years sobriety came in and was the first one to share. She said "To those of you who are here to have your court slips signed please sit down and shut up and be respectful of those of us who are here because we want to be." If I was one who was there to have my slip signed I surely wouldn't come back. I thought it was just plain rude, unwelcoming and against the spirit of AA unity. I was pleased that the person chairing the meeting called her on her #%@ and it was apparent that this wasn't the first time she had to be spoken to about things like this. She is a person who comes to meetings daily and I get the feeling she stirs up a lot of drama like this.

That didn't turn me against AA. It did turn me against her though. Great..........now I need to go do a 4th step deal about her? :lol: :roll:
I tend to gravitate towards the old timers who seem to have a healthy attitude and a brand of sobriety that I want.

PeaceJoy~

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Postby Dallas » Sat Sep 18, 2010 7:27 am

I think examples like this show -- that an alkie can sometimes stay sober for a long period of time -- and still -- show the signs of untreated alcoholism. It's unfortunate. And, hopefully, the leader of the meeting that called her out on it made mention that "it's never too late to take the
Steps if your still sober. Recovery and transformation is possible -- if you work for it."

It's true that the behavior of some oldtimers bring a dark cloud that hangs over the rest of the oldtimers. Just like some citizens and some police officers behavior brings a dark cloud over others -- outside the rooms. Some clergy and some doctors -- give a bad impression of others. Sometimes, it's helpful to remember that inside an AA meeting, we're simply sitting in close quarters with the same folks in our society that don't sit in meetings -- rather than rush to judgement, that somehow AA's are going to eventually turn into Saints.

I've known of, and currently still know of, members called oldtimers -- simply because they've continued to go to meetings for 8, 10, 20, 35 years... that are not sober. Some of us have been around long enough to have watched their slips, watched their pot smoking... etceteras. It isn't our job to call them out on it and if and when we do -- the newer people in the rooms say that we're wrong to do it. They tell us we should be taking our own inventories. :lol: :lol:

I will say, though -- that there are a few really good old-timers out there, and I hope that someday, each member will have the luxury of meeting at least one of them. :wink:

I consider myself lucky to have gotten sober as early as I did. And, for getting sober where I did. The Fellowship was still full and thriving of many oldtimers that I looked up to and hoped to someday have the sober character and personalities and achievements that they demonstrated. When you've been around for a while -- and have watched them die off -- you begin to hope that, "I won't be the next one!" :lol:

I also want to say, that I'm seeing a lot of changes for the better over the last couple of years. I'm noticing more and more of the little pockets of sober enthusiasm sprouting up with members dedicated to sobriety and service. It's kind of like a mini-revolution going on inside the Fellowship as more and more members are beginning to study our history, the importance of the BB, the Steps, and being of service.

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Postby Rain » Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:10 am

PeaceJoy wrote:"To those of you who are here to have your court slips signed please sit down and shut up and be respectful of those of us who are here because we want to be."

I thought it was just plain rude, unwelcoming and against the spirit of AA unity. I was pleased that the person chairing the meeting called her on her #%@ and it was apparent that this wasn't the first time she had to be spoken to about things like this. She is a person who comes to meetings daily and I get the feeling she stirs up a lot of drama like this.

That didn't turn me against AA. It did turn me against her though. Great..........now I need to go do a 4th step deal about her? :lol: :roll:
I tend to gravitate towards the old timers who seem to have a healthy attitude and a brand of sobriety that I want.

PeaceJoy~



The scary part of this is I probably know her. But here I think there is some defence.
There is a difference between what is rude and "what I dont' like". Most if not all of us bristle at being told what to do. If you study manners, (and I do, Emily Post to Miss Manners, and for fun, no less) There is a social rule that is rarely observed but very correct.
You are not allowed to correct the behavior of an adult.

If the first lady was wrong, then the one correcting her was inexcusible, as she added to the problem and invited (by being in a position of leadership and indulging in this rude behavior) everyone in the group to correct each other, a thing never allowed in polite society, and not all that helpful in a meeting, either.

And so we come to the difference between polite society and AA.

We are very much involved in correcting the behavior of other adults.

If people were told to "sit down and shut up" it is fair to assume that they are not seated, and not quiet, and/or there was a history of disquiet and movement. Were they disrupting the speaker or was this pre-emptive? Does the meeting get out of hand on a regular basis? Has this woman ever been observed walking up to people not in a meeting that were sitting and say reading and asking them to "sit down and shut up"?

(PS. Have you ever been to Fremont?)


The other part of her statement: To those of you who are here to have your court slips signed......."please.....be respectful to those of us that want to be here."

This is a plea, very proper and she even gets bonus points for saying please.
(Ok, "shut up" isn't the most gracious phrasing (or the most effective)


How about something like this:

"I wish to extend a special welcome to those of you that are here by court order today. We know you may not wish to be here and want to make this experience as painless for eveyone as possible. Please feel free to participate as little or as much as you would like, and if you don't wish to participate at this time, I invite you to respect the members and spirit of the meeting by quietly sitting through our meeting. There is liturature available to amuse yourself during the meeting if you didn't bring a book, MP3 or have texting abilities. We will be signing slips at the end of the meeting for those that are not disruptive, and we are glad to see you even if you are not glad to see us. By the way, Inez G did the baking this week, so please help yourself to a cup of coffee and cookie or three."


Meaner than the original phrase, more manipulative and yet....


Court slips: there are two schools of thought:

One: that you should sign them at the end of the meeting, forcing the poor sap that has run afoul of the law to sit through the meeting in the hopes that a seed is sown. At least a seed other than resentment being forced to be in AA. (This was usually my thought)

Two: Sign the slips right off the bat, and everyone that doesn't want to be in the meeting for the full time can go. Those that don't want to be there don't have to stay, resentfull and disruptive and might be more receptive to working the program if and when they return of their own free will. (Leaning this way)


"I was pleased that the person chairing the meeting called her on her #%@"

You got pleasure from this? A person publicly challanged and shamed by the leader of an AA meeting? During the meeting?


"and it was apparent that this wasn't the first time she had to be spoken to about things like this."

Let's explore why it is acceptable to "call her on her !@#$%^&*, and tell her to [shut up and sit down] and it not acceptable to call those with court slips on their loud mouthed, disruptive behavior on THEIR !@#$%^&*?

Perhaps because she in annoying in other ways? Old, Bossy? BTW, it is amazing that if you can answer in the negative "Do I find this person attractive?" How very unsympathetic they can be.

I wonder why she says what she does? Has she seen this meeting deteriorate?

There is no threat in newcomers to one's ideas or ideology. Old Timers are at threat to almost everybody.[It's like hanging out with nuns, teachers or cops.Fine people, of course, but socially it's hard to be at your ease with them.
Have you ever been to a meeting that celebrates old-timers? I've only heard of one group in AA that it is ok to judge, evaluate their sobriety, dismiss and disrespect. It's not the newcomer.

I'm amazed that she goes to daily meetings. I don't know if I could. Does anyone take her to coffee?

"Great..........now I need to go do a 4th step deal about her? :lol: :roll:
I tend to gravitate towards the old timers who seem to have a healthy attitude and a brand of sobriety that I want."


Not those poor shlubs that have been screwing it up for 30 years. They should be thrown out.

The eyeroll should indicate everything you need to know about step 4

Fireman Mike once told me that whenever some one didn't like where he was at in his program he would say "Yeah, but you don't know what I was like when I got here".
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Postby PeaceJoy » Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:41 am

I should emphasize that I've met some awesome old timers. My sponsor being the top on m y list. She's 24 yrs sober and was my friend before I admitted to my alcoholism. I think in a way she 12 stepped me in here but not by telling me I had a problem. I just knew her story and saw how she lives her life. I heard her talk about the things she'd learned in AA and I thought she didn't know I was an alcoholic. I thought I was very sneaky :roll: . But the morning I woke up from my <hopefully> last hangover she's the first person I thought of to call. It was very hard to do and she held my hand and got me to a meeting. I've met other old timers who really do inspire me and walk the walk. Hopefully one day I will be one of those to inspire newcomers. :D
PeaceJoy~
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