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Dallas
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Joined: 28 Jul 2005
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Location: Fort Smith, Arkansas USA
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 Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:58 am Post subject: Does AA have anything to do with – relationships? |
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Does AA have anything to do with – relationships?
Am I Accepting or Changing things I need to change?
You're not seeing double! You may have read this in Meeting Topics under the topic of Am I Accepting or Changing things I need to change?
As I was thinking about what I’m about to write I wasn’t sure if it would belong in the category of “AA Meeting Topics” or in “Relationships.” So, in the end – I might post it over there using the subtitle.
Yesterday, I decided to visit a noon AA meeting that I haven’t been to in a while. I’ve never cared a lot about attending this meeting – but, it is the only noon meeting in town, and I just had one of those desires going on to attend a meeting that day.
It was nice to see the young guy that was Chairing the meeting was a guy that, last year, I used to pick up occasionally at a Treatment Facility and take him to outside meetings. He looked good. All cleaned up. Participating and doing a good job! I remember, too, that he was Chairing the meeting the last time that I visited this meeting – which showed me that he’s sticking with it and being active in AA. (The odds were that it would have been someone else Chairing this meeting yesterday).
First, he asked the Group, if anyone had a suggestion for the topic. Since no one responded – he gave his little lead, as it’s called in some meetings (and Identifying as it’s called in other meetings).
He said: “Here’s the deal. When I was younger – I hooked up with a girlfriend that already had two sons. Her son’s were young. I started drinking more and using drugs and wasn’t a very good example for the boys. As a matter of fact, after I went to treatment and then to AA, to clean up my act and get sober – I discovered that the two boys, now teenagers, were filled with disgust and disrespect for me.”
He went on to say: “Now, the kids won’t listen to me at all. They bring girls over on the weekend – slip them into the house, take them to their rooms and have sex with them!
He said: “I’ve talked to them about it and ask them not to do it. I’ve told them not to do it. They continue to do it!
I’ve talked to them about it and to my wife about it. We’ve both decided that it’s not a thing that we want going on in our house. And, I feel that – even though I’m not the kids biological father – I am the Head of my house and they should be minding me and respecting my rules if they are going to live there. I wasn’t able to do that when I was a teenager (even though I would have liked it), but I was taught it wasn’t the moral thing to do.”
And, he summed it up with “I’m head of the house. They should be listening to me. I should have some authority in my own house! And, I feel as though they are disrespecting me!”
And after a long pause, he drops his head down to the table, appearing as if a warm thick cloud of humility had suddenly descended on him, and said “So, I guess the topic is Acceptance!” 
I had chosen to sit towards the back of the meeting in a position to listen and observe. If I don’t sit towards the back once in a while – I’ll continue to wonder if the meeting is any different when I’m not there as opposed to what it’s like when I’m up front and center.
I listened to the sharing that was going around the room. Typically, I don’t like attending discussion meetings like this, because – it seems like, often, the sharing will get out of hand and off topic and then there is a bunch of google-de-gok and psycho-babble that has nothing to do with sobriety, recovery, AA, or problem solving getting tossed about – and it will remind me of sitting in a dry bar, listening to a bunch of thirsty alcoholics, waiting to roll out the Burgee and have the bartender show up! It can get pretty crazy and nonsensical.
The sharing was all-too-familiar and typical discussion meeting sharing with it appearing as those the group took our their vocal violins and proceeded to sympathize and console the guy with talk like “I understand. They don’t give me any respect in my house either. And, you’re right! You should be respected as the Boss of your house and they should do what you tell them to do!” 
And, they shared things like “ It’s a time when I’ve learned that I just need to accept it. To practice acceptance. To say the Serenity Prayer – and accept the fact that they’re going to treat you bad in your own house – and your other alternative is to just kick them out and tell them if they are going to live under your roof they had better mind your rules! And, you’ll probably want to have a talk with your wife, too… and tell her she better get her kids under control!” 
After a few shares, one guy, professing to be 30 years sober says “This is stupid! Why would you bring up a relationship problem in AA? AA’s know nothing about relationships! That’s the dumbest thing I’ve heard of and the dumbest thing to do! AA and alcoholics know nothing about relationships and AA is the worst place you can go for relationship advice or suggestions! You just suck it up and accept it!”
After hearing the Old-timer, I was trying to stop my teeth from wanting to gnarl and grit – so hard that my jawbone might become dislocated as my eyes popped out of my head – and the first thing that rolled into my mind was: “Where the heck have these people been all this time? Which alcoholic did not drink over their relationships? Their relationship with themselves. Their relationships with others? Their relationship with God?” 
My next thought was “AA has everything to do with and about relationships!”
I remembered, that my very first AA sponsor had told me “Most alcoholics drank because of their relationship problems. They were unable to have a healthy relationship with their self. And, they were unable to sustain healthy relationships with others.”
He went on to tell me that “AA is not about not drinking. AA is about living sober. AA provides a way for an alcoholic to withdraw from alcohol and engage in healthy and productive living.” He said “AA is not something you do for one hour and talk about it. AA prepares you for the outside world. AA is what you do when you leave the meeting – and take these principles of the 12 Steps and the 12 Traditions and begin practicing them at home, at work, in your community, and in your world. AA helps you to establish and maintain a healthy relationship with yourself, first, so that you can then go and establish and maintain healthy relationships with others. This way, you can live the good life, and be comfortable and happy without drinking”
Not once did I hear one share that said “Are you practicing the AA principles in your home? Have you tried living and adapting the 12 Traditions in your family?”
Not once did I hear, “Perhaps this is one of those situations where you need to be focused on changing yourself and what you’re doing and what your attitude is – rather than just accepting your fate.
No. I didn’t share. My turn to share didn’t come up. And, I thought “How sad this is.” Not sad that I didn’t get to share – but sad, because not once was the solution to the problem mentioned.
AA provides the tools for me to change what needs to be changed – in myself and in my interactions with others. And, I’ve discovered that the AA 12 Steps and 12 Traditions – if practiced and applied in my life outside of AA – are the most efficient and effective healthy relationship building tools that I’ve ever discovered!
Thanks for letting me share,
 
Dallas B. |
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garden variety
Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 750
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:52 am Post subject: Re: Does AA have anything to do with – relationships? |
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Excellent thoughts Dallas - thanks for drawing yet another beautiful and mysterious illustration of peculiar AA "Paradoxology".
How is it that I can say "AA has no opinion on outside issues" such as boyfriend/girlfriend "relationships", yet I can agree with Dallas 100% that ...
| Dallas wrote: | My next thought was “AA has everything to do with and about relationships!”
I remembered, that my very first AA sponsor had told me “Most alcoholics drank because of their relationship problems. They were unable to have a healthy relationship with their self. And, they were unable to sustain healthy relationships with others.”
He went on to tell me that “AA is not about not drinking. AA is about living sober. AA provides a way for an alcoholic to withdraw from alcohol and engage in healthy and productive living.” He said “AA is not something you do for one hour and talk about it. AA prepares you for the outside world. AA is what you do when you leave the meeting – and take these principles of the 12 Steps and the 12 Traditions and begin practicing them at home, at work, in your community, and in your world. AA helps you to establish and maintain a healthy relationship with yourself, first, so that you can then go and establish and maintain healthy relationships with others. This way, you can live the good life, and be comfortable and happy without drinking”
Not once did I hear one share that said “Are you practicing the AA principles in your home? Have you tried living and adapting the 12 Traditions in your family?”
Not once did I hear, “Perhaps this is one of those situations where you need to be focused on changing yourself and what you’re doing and what your attitude is – rather than just accepting your fate.
No. I didn’t share. My turn to share didn’t come up. And, I thought “How sad this is.” Not sad that I didn’t get to share – but sad, because not once was the solution to the problem mentioned.
AA provides the tools for me to change what needs to be changed – in myself and in my interactions with others. And, I’ve discovered that the AA 12 Steps and 12 Traditions – if practiced and applied in my life outside of AA – are the most efficient and effective healthy relationship building tools that I’ve ever discovered! |
Wow - its just one of many "paradoxes" that seem to crop up everywhere in AA.
For me, A.A. has given me some of the most precious relationships I've ever known of:
-I have a relationship with a Higher Power that I understand to be God.
-I have a relationship with my sobriety - my sobriety is a "spirit" not an "event".
-I have a relationship with TODAY.
-I'm building a relationship with my soul - the "thing" deep down within me from where my own personal concept of God comes from.
Here's another paradox I've also realized. The things that are essential are most often invisible. The relationships I have with those "intangible" and invisible things I listed above will ultimately become the blueprint of all physical and tangible relationships I seek and become a part of.
That is deep, Dallas. It's slippery too. It's almost like grabbing and holding a puff of steam, or grabbing at the wind.
Your words remind me again of something this carpenter fellow told me about which relationship I would do best by seeking it first, before any other relationship. Then every other relationship I could ever need or want will be added on to that.
I wonder if that carpenter ever read the Big Book of A.A.?
I just figured out yet another relationship I get from sobriety. I have a relationship with my "domain": the entire landscape in which I'm and in which my heart and soul has an influence; the world around me. The carpenter calls it his Father's "Kingdom".
It's pretty awesome that I've been given a little piece of that domain to care for myself - and so does every other alcoholic. There is an alcoholic friend of ours named Bill who came up with another way of saying the same thing.
"Whenever anyone, anywhere reaches out for help, I want the hand of A.A. to always be there. And for that I am responsible."
A realtionship with the world around me! Wow!
Thanks for your deep thinking, brother! |
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Dallas
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Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 3401
Location: Fort Smith, Arkansas USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Paul wrote: | Here's another paradox I've also realized. The things that are essential are most often invisible. The relationships I have with those "intangible" and invisible things I listed above will ultimately become the blueprint of all physical and tangible relationships I seek and become a part of.
That is deep, Dallas. It's slippery too. It's almost like grabbing and holding a puff of steam, or grabbing at the wind. |
I understand. And, SO true! Paul, you did a good job at describing something that's indescribable! 
I've often wondered if -- it's nearly impossible to use words to explain truth. Especially spiritual truth.
If you're like me, you try and try and try and try to describe it... and it gets across to the other person... but, as you read it... you think.. "naw... it's more than that! how can I say it?" What are the words that I'm trying to find to describe it?
Spiritual truth. Like God. Words cannot adequately describe.... no matter how hard we try.
Perhaps, it's because the totality of spiritual truth could possibly be beyond our understanding. And, all we get is a shadow of the truth... and we try to explain the shadow that we see, and feel and experience. Words are unable to describe the Divine Majesty of it all.
It’s kind of like love. Like when you’re really in love… and you want to describe it, but the words escape the efforts to describe.
BTW… Did you forget??? You have a relationship with me, too Paul!!!
The Fellowship of Humanity.
The Fellowship of Brothers.
The Fellowship of AA.
The Fellowship of Friends.
The Fellowship of the Spirit!
I love you, Bro!!
Dallas |
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ccs
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 355
Location: Tampa Bay Area Fla.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Paul its nice to read a real Garden Variety post seems like I havnt been hearing much from you lately and I miss you how have you been ???
I aslo luv it when Dallas and you get together and share your thoughts and hearts with us I have learned so much from you both since I`ve been here
sometimes when I`m reading one of your posts (both of you)
I feel like you are talking straight to me its like Dallas says are you reading my mind ?? then he says its the fellowship of the spirit
your right guys this is deep deep stuff your sharing here you two describe the indescribable so well ! thats how I know it comes straight from your HEARTS !!!!
sorry to embarrass you guys but I want to be like you when I grow up 
LUV YA both thanks for sharing your hearts with me today
Cess |
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Dallas
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Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 3401
Location: Fort Smith, Arkansas USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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Cessie... you are the inspiration for us. We wouldn't be nothin' without you! It's you and the others that keep us going! Left to ourselves and our own devices... well... I better not say that. Don't want to make Paul mad! He's a big guy!!! And, I may not be able to run fast enough!!! 
Dallas |
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angel143
Joined: 09 Jun 2009
Posts: 145
Location: Mesa, AZ
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| Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Dallas wrote: |
It’s kind of like love. Like when you’re really in love… and you want to describe it, but the words escape the efforts to describe. |
Dallas....
Is that what love is? When you feel things but to describe it with mere words doesnt seem like enough?
Hmmmm....thats really good to know. That clears up a lot of things for me!
As always....thanks! |
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Dallas
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Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 3401
Location: Fort Smith, Arkansas USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:46 am Post subject: |
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| Heather wrote: | Dallas....
Is that what love is? When you feel things but to describe it with mere words doesnt seem like enough?
Hmmmm....thats really good to know. That clears up a lot of things for me! |
Nope. That's not what I meant. Back to the drawing board?
Love is a verb. (For some it's a noun) For me it's a verb. It's an action word that describes my actions... not my feelings.
Love wasn't what I was referring to above... but since you asked:
a. Love is a verb that describes actions. As in "a Loving God". (A God that is doing divine Love.... because God is Love. And, God is doing what God does because that's what God is. And, it's also why it is so difficult to describe God. Our vocabulary probably isn't advanced enough in addition to our ability to use it -- if it was -- to describe God or our experience with God. Which is why some of us rely on a "God as we understand God. It is important to have an understanding. Understandings are the results of thoughts.
But, it's not always so easy to describe the contents of our thoughts with words. And, words... are the way that we express our thoughts.
Logos. "the Word"; "the Idea"; "the expressed Thought"; "Logic".
So, I can see how the idea that the Logos and God are One.... (as understood by some). And, if God is Love... Love is a spiritual quality of Action. How can you use words adequately enough to describe God? Spirit? Truth? Love? Logos?) (I believe that this is why in the Gospel of John, in the Bible, in Chapter 1, it starts similar to Genesis 1:1, of the Old Testement: "In the beginning God" ... and " "In the beginning was the Word (Logos)... and the Word... was with God... and was God"... and later on down the chapter, it explains that the Logos... was manifest in flesh... or God in the Flesh. Son of God / Son of Man).... "God's expression of Himself in the Flesh -- through the Word".
Enough of that though... just using it here for illustration and comment.
b. "Being in love", for me: Describes my state of being -- in the actions.
Example "In Him I live and walk and have my being" These are all actions that describe the active state of my being. Love describes the movement -- the action -- in association with my active state of being.
c. The feelings: Describe the environmental changes that are produced by the loving actions.
d. It is possible to love without feelings. Feelings are not the evidence of love -- feelings are the evidence of our thoughts about love. If we are doing Love without thinking about it -- it's likely we will be loving without feelings or emotions. However, once we start to "think about it"... we experience an environmental change within ourselves.
e. All of our feelings -- emotions -- are the result of our thinking. It's not possible to have a "feeling"... without having thoughts that are producing the feelings. Therefore, if we find a way of living -- that will control our thinking -- our thinking will change -- and we can be in control of the things that we feel (Emotions).
This is often why in AA we say that "feelings are not facts." Thoughts are not facts. Thoughts are the way that we express our ideas or perception of reality.
They (our thoughts) are like "a map of our reality"... "our map" is not reality... the map simply illustrates the perception of what we believe to be our reality.
If I were going to go from Arkansas to New York, I would obtain a map. The map is not the road that I would travel -- it's simply an illustration or expression of the "thought of the road" to New York.
The feelings experienced in association with a state of being that's in movement... "in love" would be the results of my thoughts about what I'm doing.... in relationship to "my map of reality."
Thoughts are sometimes difficult to define. Some emotions (feelings), are more difficult to define.... than the thoughts that are producing the feelings.
| Dallas wrote: | Spiritual truth. Like God. Words cannot adequately describe.... no matter how hard we try.
Perhaps, it's because the totality of spiritual truth could possibly be beyond our understanding. And, all we get is a shadow of the truth... and we try to explain the shadow that we see, and feel and experience. Words are unable to describe the Divine Majesty of it all.
It’s kind of like love. Like when you’re really in love… and you want to describe it, but the words escape the efforts to describe. |
This is why for me, it's easier for me to describe God, as I understand God, by expressing my understanding that God is Love. God is Good. God is Life and the Giver of Life. God is Light and in God there is no darkness.
Does that mean that this is what God is? No. It simply means it's the expression of my thoughts according to "my map of reality"... my perception, or understanding of what God is. And, the feelings inside me are the environmental changes that I am expressing as a result of "thinking about" God.
So, I am able to try to describe my "map of reality" of God... or my thoughts in association with my "map of reality"... of God... but it would explain no more about God... than a map would explain New York!
Beware: don't take any of this to the bank, yet... I'll have to read what I wrote a few times to make sure that I wrote what I meant to write!
Dallas |
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tim-one
Joined: 29 Apr 2009
Posts: 326
Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:37 am Post subject: |
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Does AA have anything to do with relationships?
Are you kidding?
Y'DAM STRAIGHT, IT DOES !
Most of it is REPAIR. The rest of it is healthy initialization. But, maybe that's just me.
The other day, I was into some movie on TV. My wife decided that was a good time to start talking about my "progress". 
"Uh huh ... right ... uh huh ... sure ... uh huh ... (will you please shut the hell up? This guy is fixin' to kill somebody.)
I suddenly realized what I wa doin and my baby needed to talk.
I shut off the TV. I got a bucket of ice cream. We sat toe-to-toe on the sofa.
KNOWING where this was going, I said, "Can we talk? Tell me how things are going for you."
You have to understand how my wife talks.
Her mother is German ... "Alles ist in ordnung" (All is in order, near as I can tell) Culturally dramatic manner of speech.
Her father is French ... Culturally dramatic manner of speech.
First grade school teacher ... every stinkin little detail.
GOD, I love that girl!
She started, unplugged, telling me how I misrepresented myself when we were dating. The promises of security I'd broken. The lies I'd told. The anger, the heartbreak, the do dah do dah ..... She just unloaded on me, at me.
Perfect. That's 'zakly what I wanted her to do for herself and what I needed to hear.
Me ... Irish Catholic, Mr. life-sucks-and-that's-what's-so-funny ... in reaction to her dramatic manner had always bit my tongue to stop an oncoming conflict. But sometimes my tongue bit back.
I didn't say a word. I looked her in the eye. Listenned. Took it in. I deserved every second of it. I talked back with facial expressions only. Cried a LOT. So did she.
I've got A LOT of amends to make to that girl. I added several to my list. That night was a very special start.
Omagod, how sweet our relationship has been since then. She's laughing more, lotsa squishin' (huggin') ... she got some healing outa that. And I reeeelly got some healin' done.
I'm still a dufus. She's still a drama queen. Neither of us can help it (I'm workin' on my dufism with HelP. (Hey, I like that. I just made that up!)
mm mm mmmmm ... ain't God good today?
Love y'all,
Tim1
PS: HelP :
Higher - El= Hebrew for God - Power
"The Lord is my strength and my salvation; my very present help in time of need". |
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tim-one
Joined: 29 Apr 2009
Posts: 326
Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:58 am Post subject: |
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Heather,
| Quote: | | Is that what love is? When you feel things but to describe it with mere words doesnt seem like enough? |
I pretty much agree with Dallas on that. Ain't it a joy to TRY to express love to someone else's understanding? Words are SO inadequate.
I like the saying that "Love is a verb. It's done, not just felt."
I tried a few times:
Music
Light hearted
Heavy browed
Sins confessed
Life endowed
Heart and soul entwined in dance
Dreams are born and love enhanced
Music unheard is joy un-done
You are a song that must be sung
And my soul will dance to you
TS
1-1-'79
(un-named)
When music is all you hear,
you can discover all of the singularly insignificant sounds
which mix together into a singularly magnificent sensation
So also it is when love is all you feel
TS
2-11-'79
Dunno what is was with me and music/love back then. Musta been SOMEBODY.
Love,
Tim1 |
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JayWalker
Joined: 11 Sep 2006
Posts: 13
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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The program of recovery is all about relationships.
JayWalker
Chapter 3 |
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tim-one
Joined: 29 Apr 2009
Posts: 326
Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:51 am Post subject: |
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That's right, JW,
If it was just me, I could be fine in a box under a bridge. as long as I had cable TV and internet
But it ain't just me. The only amends I can do to those around me is to be a better man.
Screw alcohol. That's just a symptom. My problem is ME. Turns out I'm THEIR problem, too.
Everyone else can leave the room, but I have to live with me.
Hhhmmm ... well... no I don't have to. There's only two solutions to THAT problem.
Love,
Tim1 |
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Kayliz
Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 2
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:58 pm Post subject: Relationships Reflect Spirituality in Recovery |
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| I really connect with the discussion on this topic and have found that the quality of my intimate relationship in AA is directly related to the quality I have in my relationship with my higher power. I think understanding this is so important I wrote a memoir (just published!) in which I explore my own personal journey in this area. It is remarkable how closely the two parallel. |
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Dallas
Site Admin
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 3401
Location: Fort Smith, Arkansas USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Kayliz!!! Welcome to the forum! I'd like to read more of your experience in this area.
Thanks,
Dallas |
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tim-one
Joined: 29 Apr 2009
Posts: 326
Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:06 am Post subject: |
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Nice to meetcha, Kayliz.
You are absolutely correct in my (n)ever humble opinion.
I determined a long time ago that conflict is not a good reason to leave a job cuz I take at least half the problem with me to the next one. Same with personal relationships AND my HP. I proved that several times in my life.
I noticed that the 12 steps mention alcohol only once in step 1 and once again in 12. The rest of it is about having personal contact with a non-human (pg 60 (b) - "That probably no human power could relieve me of alcoholism") Higher Power as (much as) I understand Him.
The whole thing is about changing my half of every relationship. Amazing how changing me changes how life and people treat me. Go figure!
As I worked the steps and continue to PAY ATTENTION to HP, as I get to know Him better, I've been having revelation after revolution after epiphany about my relationship with my wife, my career, AA siblings, and everyone and everything else.
IT WAS ALWAYS ME AFTER ALL !
Does AA have anything to do with relationships? YOU BETCHA ! It doesn't have anything to do with anything else. Alcohol was just my way of proving life didn't love me the way I was.
And THAT'S the real deal.
I thought I might clarify something I wrote above:
| Quote: | Everyone else can leave the room, but I have to live with me.
Hhhmmm ... well... no I don't have to. There's only two solutions to THAT problem. |
For me, the two solutions were auto-murder or the AA way.
One of the 3 reasons I didn't kill myself is I believe in life or death after death. The death would be being stuck in a room with myself the way I was that moment. EEeeewwwwww ...
Everyone else can still leave the room, but now I kinda like me! 
Love,
Tim1 |
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Dallas
Site Admin
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 3401
Location: Fort Smith, Arkansas USA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:32 am Post subject: |
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It's nice to see you Tim-One. Or, did I already write that???
I missed your postings.
Dallas |
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